Hamadi Jebali, former secretary general of Tunisia’s Islamist Ennahda party, said Islamists’ mismanagement of the political transition led to the party’s losses in the 2014 elections. “Every party that tries to immediately govern after a revolution will fail,” he said in a December 2014 interview with Robin Wright. Jebali warned new president Beji Caid Essebsi against polarizing society between Islamists and secularists. He also linked the disproportionately large number of Tunisians that have joined ISIS to a long history of restricted freedoms under authoritarian regimes. Jebali is often known as the “Mandela of Tunisia” after spending 17 years in prison under former president Zine al Abidine Ben Ali. He was the first prime minister after Tunisia’s revolution, and he resigned from the post in March 2013.

The following is a transcript of the interview.

Tunisia is a paradox. It had one of the most impressive elections in the entire Arab world. But it also provides more fighters to ISIS than any other country.

It’s not a paradox. The fact that Tunisians are fighting in ISIS is a result of Ben Ali’s policies – not a result of the revolution. Maybe the revolution gave them more freedom, liberties, and rights, and they benefited from the freedom of movement and expression. But these people are the victims of despotism. This new generation is formed by the sons of those who were fighting against the previous regime.

I’m convinced the solution for these people is more democracy, more freedoms, and especially more development. Terrorism is fed by despotism, and by dividing regions of the country. In Europe, we used to hear about Baader-Meinhof in Germany, Red Brigades in Italy, Action Direct in France, ETA in Spain. Where are these organizations now? These terrorist organizations confronted democratic societies and they faded away. But they get stronger in authoritarian regimes. Maybe they will get stronger in Egypt as a result of Sisi’s regime. And they’ve gotten stronger in Syria and Iraq.

But these fighters didn’t join ISIS under Ben Ali. They joined ISIS in the last four years since the Arab Spring. There has to be something more to this.

They exist because of the bad behavior of Ben Ali when he was limiting liberties. They didn’t appear overnight. They are here because of the past, not because of the present. Maybe they were part of the general Islamist movement, but they weren’t patient when confronted with new freedoms. Maybe Rachid Ghannouchi could take up arms someday, because of what happens when there are limitations on liberties. This is what happened to Zawahiri and others in Egypt and Afghanistan. They emerged from the repression of Nasser and Mubarak. They did not appear suddenly.

What parts of the country do they come from?

They come from the northwest and the south. These regions are poor and underdeveloped. The system has let them down in terms of poverty, unemployment, and education. When I have discussions with my American and European friends, I tell them that they are making a big mistake, because they don’t ask the right question, which is: why? You always ask how to deal with this situation and get rid of the fighters. But you didn’t ask where they came from. Did you ask why, for example, why Bin Laden, this billionaire  from a wealthy family, went to the mountains? Did you ask why Europeans, women, and youth are now in ISIS? Did you ask why Iraqi Sunnis are now cooperating with ISIS? This is the important question – why.

What is your answer to the question of “why”?

It’s really complex. First, it comes back to our culture. The Islamist world is lagging behind culturally and socially. Islam came from freedoms and liberties. But now there’s an idea in Islam, and particularly in the mashriq [Arab countries to the east of Egypt] that has strayed from the progressive vision that is at the core of Islam. And they are producing more fundamentalists who are against individual freedoms, especially for women. We need a concept of a holistic state with good governance in economics and finance, for the majority of regimes in the Arab world. We need a cultural revolution. This is why things are moving backwards instead of progressing. And this is our problem, it’s not to say that it’s other people’s mistakes. Maybe we have also seen this in the electoral campaigns in a more personalized way. We saw it yesterday, in one simple thing. Nidaa Tounes came out at 6pm and declared Essebsi the winner. It’s against electoral law. So we are lacking in democratic culture.

Another side of it is the West. They deal with Islam in a superficial way. They look at very small interests – oil, markets, etc. And they look to authoritarian regimes to protect their own interests. This includes the monarchies of the Gulf, but also the past authoritarian regimes of Ben Ali, Mubarak, and others. This is a superficial vision of interests.

So here we see two reasons. Narrow western interests, and our own cultural problem. For example, I’m not concerned that the coup in Egypt was against the Brotherhood or Morsi. The problem is that the military coup killed the hope of the Arab world for rights, freedoms, and democracy. This military coup sends the message that Arabs do not deserve freedoms and liberties. It implies they can only be governed by the military and authoritarian regimes. So this is the real danger now.

Where is ISIS now? We see ISIS in Iraq because the government is elitist and only represents Shiites. This led to Sunnis supporting ISIS. ISIS is in Syria because there is another despot, a dictator named Bashar al Assad. ISIS is in Yemen because it suffers from all the same problems. ISIS is in Sinai because of Sisi’s authoritarian regime and Israel on the other side. Maybe ISIS will gain a foothold in Gaza if we can’t have a dialogue with Palestinians, including Hamas. I’m glad that Europe is awakening now and starting these discussions. We shouldn’t push Hamas towards ISIS. This would be very dangerous. ISIS now is in Libya. They are moving, spreading. I’m afraid they will be in Tunisia. ISIS is in Mali, Somalia, and other places.

ISIS is evolving, progressing, and showing up in areas with despotism and limits on freedoms. These people want to make our youth think they only have two options: either a military coup or ISIS, and there is no third alternative. ISIS and Sisi are two extremes.

I’m very happy for Tunisia because it opted for a third alternative – potentially another model that is neither Sisi nor ISIS. Will Tunisia follow through on this? Essebsi could make this successful, but we will have to wait and see.

Why did Ennahda come in second in the parliamentary elections?

First, every party that tries to govern immediately after a revolution will fail. This has happened in Eastern Europe and elsewhere. It happens because there are high expectations for freedoms and rights, but also economic problems and few possibilities to fix it.

Second, Ennahda did not manage the transitional period very well. It should have lasted one year, but went on for three. We should have written the constitution and gone directly to an election, instead of getting distracted by side issues.  

Third, our political and social opponents declared war on us from the very start. You see right now that Essebsi has some time to catch his breath. We didn’t have that.

Has Ennahda sold out?

I think that they have made mistakes in electoral strategy and calculations. Ennahda should have been present in all elections, including the presidency. Ennahda is a big party. They shouldn’t leave gaps like that. When you are present in elections, it doesn’t mean you monopolize everything. If you’re strongest, you can win. Ennahda proved that in 2011. They had the same results Nidaa Tounes has right now.

But they gave up presidency of the assembly and presidency of the republic, and took just presidency of government. Essebsi did not give up anything, and he will not give up anything. He will govern by himself, and he will use Ennahda and others. I do not agree with these politics. Ennahda needs to create balance. And Ennahda’s election results do not allow it to create balance. This is my biggest issue with Ennahda. It needs to better position itself in society.

Four years after the Arab uprising, what is the future of political Islam?

I don’t know the meaning of political Islam, but I’ll give an opinion. In a time of democracy after the revolution, it’s a mistake to put Islam in a political battle. Issues of Islam and identity are only part of the practice of freedoms in society. Ben Ali attacked the identity of the country – prayers, the faith, hijab, everything. So we had to defend this identity of Islam and Arabism. But Tunisian identity is also based on the Phoenicians, Romans, and others. Tunisia is a diverse country with a lot of different backgrounds. Tunisians do not want a closed society; they are open and they love progress. Our youth and women are very open, but they still maintain their religious identity.

So when there is freedom, and when we are sure there is no one attacking our identity and religion, there is no reason why Islam should be part of a political contest. Everyone needs to practice their own convictions. We have the new constitution to guarantee these rights. The state is civil and not religious. It is a country of citizenship.

We should not polarize our society between Islamism and secularism. This can lead to a civil war. And that’s what we see elsewhere in the Middle East. There is no winner or loser when you talk about religion, because this can be dangerous. We need to move away from these discussions and focus on the real issues of Tunisia – culture, development, health, and transportation. It doesn’t mean that we don’t care about our identity. It’s based on freedom, not whether to wear the hijab or not, to pray or not. It’s the idea that every single person should be free – unlike under Ben Ali.

Polarization, as it was under Bourguiba and Ben Ali, is a big danger now with Essebsi’s victory. Essebsi has said there is a struggle between certain parts of society based on political Islam, and others focused on modernization, democracy, freedom, and rights. Essebsi added another struggle between north and south, which is very dangerous in our society. There’s a big conflict between two sides, that’s true. But it’s between dictatorship and democracy, not between Islam and democracy.

What did you think of the presidential election?

I had two reactions. First, I was happy because it was a big success for democracy in Tunisia, especially if we consider our internal situation and the difficult situation in the region. So it was a difficult mission that we achieved, especially Ennahda. Many people do not want to recognize that success and the role of Ennahda, but it’s the truth. We have done our duty.

My second reaction is that we’re still on hold, waiting to see what will happen. Beji Caid Essebsi had this result thanks to democracy. I won’t say anything to the contrary. But I’m skeptical about what it means for liberties, for two reasons. First, we are in a transitional period of building a democracy. And based on the experience of other countries, there needs to be a balance of power. Democracy cannot be built with one side monopolizing power. I said this even when Ennahda was in power. I asked for more participation and widening the political base. So I asked for a government of technocrats, but left my position. I would not accept monopolization even from my own party.

So this is the main reason I’m skeptical, the political and social imbalance in the country right now. Nidaa Tounes is the majority party in parliament, they can form a government, and they have the presidency. This is a real danger to democracy.

The second reason is that this party, Nidaa Tounes, is a mix without a clear identity. The majority rely on the former regime’s system. Specifically, they rely on the four main forces that supported Ben Ali.

The first force is economic capital. Eighty percent of the wealth in Tunisia is owned by 10-12 big families, who supported Ben Ali. They are the same people supporting Beji Caid Essebsi and Nidaa Tounes. And they will give their own conditions to Essebsi.

The second force is the security background we used to have, which I fear is coming back. Tunisia needs to change its security mentality, to work in a republican system. We need long-term change in mentalities, trainings, programs, and even people. But returning to the past is a real danger.

The third force is the corrupted judicial system. Not many judges from the old regime have been replaced. So they are also making a comeback.

The fourth force is the media. We know very well how the media system worked under Bourguiba and Ben Ali. And we observed television channels and newspapers backing Essebsi during the campaign period. I’m fearful that voices in the media will be stifled as they were under Ben Ali’s regime.

So Essebsi’s government will be supported by these four forces. And he has no choice, he will rely on them.

So this is my reaction, a feeling of happiness because of the success of the democratic process, but also my fears.

Do you regret that you did not run for president?

No, it’s not my problem at all. If I’d wanted to be a candidate, I would have done it. My problem is not personal. My problem is making the Tunisian experience successful. I’ve seen a lot of threats to that from both the inside and outside.

Do you still have any relationship with Ennahda?

No, I no longer have a relationship with them. But that doesn’t mean I will fight them. Ennahda was and will be a very strong power in this society. Ennahda may be accepted to be part of the government. I quit Ennahda because, in my opinion, they lost their power balance in society. Ennahda was a link in the government and a factor of stability, and many positive things now are a results of Ennahda. I hope that Ennahda will be a power balance in the future.

Clearly, I don’t want to see political Islam or non-political Islam. Islam is for all Tunisian citizens. And the political parties develop their own platforms and programs. I also think that now we need to focus on Tunisia, not outside influences. In Tunisia, we don’t want to say we are affiliated to the east or the west. We want to be our own power here. And I hear that Essebsi will bring us back to aligning with east or west.  

What are you doing now, and what’s next?

All the answers that I gave are building a path for what I plan to do. I think we’re at an important stage in Tunisia, which is building the base of democracy. What we have done so far is good, but we need to continue. These are only the first steps, like a child who is just learning how to walk. This is my main concern, to keep building democracy in Tunisia. We shouldn’t go back to the one-party system of the past, or suppress the media. I hope to be able to travel to Washington without being prevented from leaving the country. And I hope that I can tell Essebsi that he made a mistake here. I hope that the opposition can now express their opinions, as they could when they led the government. And I hope that workers can go on strikes without fearing anything. I hope that there will be no political trials.

This is my role right now, to protect these rights. I will do it on my own, along with others who defend freedoms.

Are you forming a new political party?

If I feel there is a social need to form a new party, I will do that. Because I believe that there is always a third path between military government and ISIS. There are Tunisians who don’t want to go back to Ben Ali’s system, but also don’t want to join ISIS.

Photo credit: Courtesy of the U.S. Institute of Peace