Sheikh Rachid Ghannouchi, co-founder of Tunisia’s Islamist Ennahda movement, said Islamists have lost some of their appeal in the Middle East. "They don't have enough support to rule," he said in a December 2014 interview with Robin Wright. He also called ISIS "the fruits of despotism," linking extremism to the legacy of authoritarian regimes. Ghannouchi said that Ennahda's first priority in the new government will be amending laws from the Ben Ali era that could challenge democracy, freedom, and human rights. Overall, Ghannouchi remained optimistic. “It could take five, 10, or 20 years, but the Arab world is entering a new era similar to what happened in Eastern Europe and Latin America,” he said.

The following is a transcript of the interview.

After the Arab uprisings, moderate Islam – including the Muslim Brotherhood and Ennahda – did very well in elections. Now Brotherhood members are jailed in Egypt, and Ennahda came in second in the elections. What does that mean?

It means that the general situation in the region does not favor Islamists. Media, businesspeople, administrations, elites, and even culture – all of these are against Islamism. In Egypt, the army and police are against Islamists as well. So they don’t have enough support to rule. But it’s not about numbers alone. It’s about the role of money, the army, soft power, and the administration. In Algeria in 1992, the Islamists had gained more than 80 percent of the vote. But the other 20 percent took power and stopped them from ruling. So just having 80 percent support is not enough to rule.

Are there lessons for Ennahda and the Brotherhood?

They should share power with the secularists.

Tunisia is both a model and a fear. It’s a paradox. The most democratic elections in the Arab world are in Tunisia. But the largest number of foreign fighters in ISIS are from Tunisia. Why?

It’s because these young people are not a legacy of the revolution. It’s the legacy of Ben Ali, of despotism. They haven’t been brought up in the revolution, these thousands of young people. They are the fruit of Ben Ali, and Muammar Qaddafi, Hosni Mubarak, Bashar al Assad, Saddam Hussein, and Nouri al Maliki. If you plant despotism, you can cultivate ISIS. The fruit of despotism is ISIS.

Yesterday, the lowest voter turnout was in Sidi Bouzid, where the revolution began. What does that tell us?

It tells us that we have not achieved the main goal of the revolution. Young people are still waiting for the fruits of the uprising. The expectations are very high. And the possibilities are very modest. The main problems have not been addressed.

Unemployment among the young is over 30 percent, and yet Ennahda and Nidaa Tounes both support reforms that will be harder rather than easier on the young.

The country has to tighten its belt for the next five years. We have to convince our youth that work has to come first before we can expect results or improvements. The culture of work has worsened since the revolution – meaning appreciating the value and importance of work.

It’s another result of despotism. Work ethic has deteriorated, because people don’t associate success with working hard. Success is usually achieved through illegal means or nepotism, not through hard work. Under Ben Ali, there was more discipline in terms of working because there was a police state. So through the power of the state, people were forced to work.

After the revolution, the state became weak, and there was no one to force people to work. The labor unions also contributed to this culture, and they were used for political reasons. But they intensified the culture of strikes and made excessive demands. Last year, in 2013, there were over 35,000 strikes. Just last week, the teachers had a strike, indefinitely, just to request payment for two days of work they missed during a previous strike. The leftists and the communists used the labor unions as a political tool to show their strength. And all of this contributed to the weakening of the culture of work.

What is Ennahda’s agenda, and will you work with Essebsi?

We want to share power to save the country, to avoid confrontation. The country needs to unify the people and push them to work hard, not to strike.

Do you have any understanding generally with Essebsi or Nidaa Tounes about a common agenda for the new government?

We’re waiting for the final results of the election. But in principle, I think Essebsi and I both accept the idea of sharing power.

Do you talk with Mr. Essebsi often?

Yes, from time to time.

What is the first thing on Ennahda’s agenda in parliament?

Our first priority is to make our laws compatible with the constitution. We’ve ratified our new constitution, but the system is not developed. The laws have to be changed. During the last 60 years, the laws countered human rights, democracy, and freedom. So we have to develop them to be in harmony with the constitution, and to avoid any sort of hegemony in the government.

Do you have any regrets that Ennahda did not run a presidential candidate?

No. Some of our members may regret it, but I think it’s a decision that helped avoid what happened in Egypt. I think it’s a very wise and courageous decision.

And next time, will you run a presidential candidate?

We are at the beginning of a 5-year term, so it’s not for a long time. I haven’t any ambition to take a post in the government.

This month is the 4^th anniversary of the Arab Spring. What are your thoughts on what has happened 4 years later? What are the lessons for the whole region?

There is a need for change in the whole region, but the balance of power is not ready yet. The international environment is not in favor of change. For example, authoritarian regimes are still resisting. The old order has succeeded in stopping this wave of change – but not forever. The Arab world, in the new era, looks to what the French Revolution or American Revolution has done for the West. And it’s a matter of time. The revolution succeeded in Tunisia because our society is very homogenous. Not completely, but other societies are more complicated, with diverse ethnic and religious minorities. But it’s a matter of time. The Arab people discovered that dictators are very weak once they saw Ben Ali run away, Qaddafi killed, and Mubarak expelled. So it’s a matter of time. It could take five, 10, or 20 years, but the Arab world is entering a new era similar to what happened in Eastern Europe and Latin America.

Is ISIS a threat to Tunisia?

No.

But there are other extremists, like Ansar al Sharia. Is extremism a threat to Tunisia?

Yes, it’s a threat, but they do not constitute a very strong threat. They can disturb the situation, but they cannot change realities. It’s a very isolated phenomenon. Tunisian people are unified against any sort of violence.

Unemployment and the lack of democracy are the real threats. They can feed this phenomenon. If Westerners fighting ISIS invested in democracy in Tunisia, they could give young people hope that democracy is the best path for change. Because these young people think using violence is the best way to change their situation, to get rid of dictators and corrupt rulers supported by the West in the Arab world. Once a dictator like Sisi is received by Mr. Obama, Mr. Hollande, and other Western leaders, it sends a very negative message sent to young Muslims – and a very positive message to ISIS. ISIS can attract many young people by pointing out what happens when you don’t use violence. But the West now supports Sisi, so it damages belief in the West and the idea of democracy, because the West is seen as hypocritical.

Photo credits: Rachid al Ghannouchi by Ennahda via Flickr (CC by 2.0)