Elizabeth Newbury:
Welcome back to another video from the Serious Games Initiative here at the Wilson Center. The Serious Games Initiative, as you may know, is celebrating our 20th anniversary of both producing and researching games for public good. Some of the things that we focus on here are mostly using games and leveraging games for either scientific communication or public policy outreach and education. Throughout the decades, our approach has really emphasized these two points. We've created everything from games about the federal budget, Budget Hero and the Fiscal Ship. And then we've also created a series of games on artificial intelligence recently, including AI's anatomy, which is about bias and AI systems. All of these can be found on our website or in the description below. We also take a concentrated effort of supporting the broader field of practice of serious games, both in the academic sphere and also in those who are actually making and developing the games. We put together this series of interviews to highlight some of those key voices in the history of serious games, and we're really excited to talk with these leaders of the field about the past, the present and the future of serious games. And to that effect, I'm joined here by Kate Edwards, and my first question is, Kate, if you could please introduce yourself and how you've oriented towards serious games.
Kate Edwards:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me here, and congratulations on the 20th anniversary. That's that's really exciting. So my name is Kate Edwards, and I'm a geographer, and I have been working in games for 31 years. I started in 1993 and which was actually on a game that could probably arguably be called somethings of a serious game, which was Flight Sim. You know, even though it's a game, but it is actually a genuine flight simulator that is accepted by the FAA as instrument flight rating. So I worked on Flight Sim 5.0 when I was at Microsoft, because I entered the company as a cartographer to work on in Encarta encyclopedia and Encarta world Atlas, which is a product some people out there probably remember of a certain age group. They don't make that product anymore, because now Wikipedia is kind of like taken over online. But that's how I got started at Microsoft and working on games. And then ever since then, I have worked on many many games, mostly on the entertainment side of things I'm up to, I think I just started my 288th game last week, and so it's busy, but my interest in serious games has always been there, right from the start, because I have been a gamer my entire life. I was seven years old when Pang showed up at a local store. Because, yes, I'm that old, so it was just a phenomenal experience to interact with this machine that is now doing something that many of us of that you know, of that era, we're just like, What is this thing? And it was life changing. So I've always been a gamer, and I've always really enjoyed games and the role that they play. And I think a lot of the earlier games I played, way back when in college and whatnot, were games that were had more of a serious game intent. They were games that were made by like, certain academic departments, like, how can you, you know, how can you sort different soil samples, for example, and just little things like that, which kind of drew me in and got me interested in the power of games as a medium, not just for entertainment, which was the obvious part, because, yes, I grew up during the Golden Age of the video game arcade in the 80s, when I was in high school, and it was amazing, and consoles and all of that, all of that was great, but it was really about what games could do beyond entertainment. And so I always was fascinated with that, especially coming at this as a geographer, and coming from the field, that field, and, you know, dealing with cultural differences and geopolitical differences, and how do we help people understand these differences? And so it was very clear to be early on that games are a perfect way to do this, because games have that ability to draw us into an experience, make it interactive, and basically, through that interaction, we are essentially, kind of secretly or casually teaching people some real facts and real information and real critical thinking skills that you just probably wouldn't get otherwise. And so I've always had an interest, and so that kind of it started for me. I would say my interest in series games started before I even started working on any actual games.
Elizabeth Newbury:
Yeah, no, I really love that notion of how games can really build and bring people together. But if we think back to the age of CRT. Monitors back into 1993, can you describe what the landscape was of interest, or the spark of interest in using games, both from yourself, as you just described, but also from the broader industry level?
Kate Edwards:
Yeah, I think that the main thing is that, you know, I think we can argue that the entire games industry as it exists today, in the very early days, I mean, even going back to the 70s and 80s, before it became like a true commercial venture, a lot of the early games were arguably serious games, because I think we were trying to explore what the medium could do. Because, again, the entertainment aspect was easy to me. That's the easy part, because you can make something entertaining even though, yes, there's a whole, you know, game design and everything else is complicated. You know, to make a great game takes a lot of effort, whether it's entertainment or not. But what I'm saying is that I think a lot of the early games that I saw back in those days were a mix of entertainment in with serious topics that they were trying to address. It's just that the reason, I think in a lot of ways, that the entertainment side took off so well is because they were actually making money, and there was actually a market for those games more than there was a market for what would be considered to be like a classic serious game. You know, certainly we see many of these serious games found their places in museums and different exhibits and installations all over the world, you know, as well as online, when eventually, you know, online became a thing. But I think some people sometimes perceive that the entertainment part came first, but my perception it wasn't first. It was just concurrent. It's like this, the whole purpose of games being used for many different purposes that started very early at the beginnings. It just so happened that the entertainment part made more money faster, so naturally, more people are going to gravitate towards that so they could actually generate revenue and make a living off of this.
Elizabeth Newbury:
Yeah, I'm, first of all, by the way, really impressed that we haven't made a where in the world is Carmen Sandiego referenced yet. That's, that's one of the games that I grew up with, yeah, and Math Blaster. Mario Teaches Typing. yeah, exactly. And it's really interesting you're very like, I love that point of it was a parallel effort, right, to make them both entertaining, but also, like, really capitalize on this medium as a avenue to crack open how to make things fun, for for learning as well. So if we are...sorry, go ahead.
Kate Edwards:
No, I was just, I just agree with you.
Elizabeth Newbury:
Yeah, it's so it's always been there. But if we fast forward to today, and maybe it's best also if we sort of frame this journey to the present with your experience with IGDA and Global Game Jam and the 100 other amazing things that you've done over the years. But if we think of this journey to the present, how has the field sort of shifted, or especially of serious games.
Kate Edwards:
Well, I would say that it is certainly evolved tremendously. I mean, not just because the tools have evolved, but it's also been a matter of, you know, how we approach game design for a quote, serious topic. And I think also the thing that is key is that a lot of the what would be considered like triple A games, or whatever you want to call them, entertainment games, mainstream games, a lot of them have incorporated topics that have become more akin to a serious game like these are narratives that are complex. They're narratives that are actually designed to illustrate, educate and teach about, like, certain things. I mean, like one example I'll give you use. I've worked on all the Dragon Age games with Bioware.
Elizabeth Newbury:
I'm gonna not fan girl too hard right now, but yes.
Kate Edwards:
And we just finished Veilguard and people love it. Um, but in the world of Dragon Age, you had this one particular group, the delish elves that were portrayed in the game. And the delish elves are kind of seen as, going all the way back to the very first game. They are seen as kind of the outcast of society. And they're people speak ill of them. They're sort of like they're kind of portrayed in sort of this untouchable role, kind of untouchable cast within the world of thesis and there was intention behind that. The reason that was done is because the original designers and writers wanted to kind of thread a commentary and an allegory into the world about immigration and like how do we as individuals in a society treat people who are the other when they're coming into our society, they look different from us, they talk different from us, and yet they're here, and so what is our responsibility, and how do we treat them, and how do we come to understand their perspective? And that was one of the key reasons for making the elves the dailysh elves, like they did. And I thought it was a brilliant move by the writers, because they took the elves, which typically, in most fantasy literature, are like token, or these, you know, god like elevated beings who are like perfect and everything else. And they, you know, they're eternal and all that. And they took them way down to a more fundamental, kind of realistic level, where they are not only kind of onpar with the other races within this world, but they're actually seen as kind of outcasts. So it's an interesting twist to take the elves and turn the cast them in that role, but that was the whole point was to basically do that, to get players thinking about this. And you know, at one point when in an interview later, some years later, they actually did, they said in an interview that that was our intention. We wanted to have that dynamic portrayed in the game. And that's just one example, but I think there's, there's a lot of AAA games, and main games where the narrative designers are pulling in what I would call what used to be typically serious game themes. We're going to address a serious topic, but I think that just illustrates the great maturity of games as a medium that it's had over the last several decades, as we're starting to see it emerge as a more complex narrative which dares to speak about things and address things that normally were not addressed, you know, 20 or 30 years ago, and even provoke emotion. You know, you can think of a game like The Last of Us or Last of Us Part Two. The the level of emotional depth that you see in that game is pretty phenomenal, and that takes a certain level of confidence and risk to put out a game like that, to think that players are open to addressing topics that normally, you know, there's like, well, I'm not having fun right now. Now I'm sad, or now I'm, you know, lamenting the loss of this character or whatever. I mean, I was horrified when I lost my dog in Fable too, I was just refreshed that my dog died. And so at the end of the game, when you could resurrect your family, the dog, or I forget, what else you could I of course, it's the dog. I want my dog back. So I think that, to me, I mean, is basically that one of the key things that I think is a big difference today is that while we do see serious games having evolved on their own in becoming more, much more sophisticated than they were, you know, 20 years ago, and what's they're capable of doing, and the level of education that they can do in enlightenment, but I think that fusion of some of those themes with actual mainstream games is a really important trend we've seen that I think is going to just increase.
Elizabeth Newbury:
Yeah, and it's, actually so back in 2002, Ben Sawyer of Digitalmill was for the Wilson Center, wrote a piece on what a serious game was. And at that time, it was really not this strong dichotomy that we see of there's, I like to think of it as there are serious games that are made from the getgo with pedagogy in forming the process, very much so thinking of some of the classic titles that I just named and some of the titles that we make here at the Wilson Center, then there's more, like the use case situation where a serious game often is, or a game can be used in like educational settings, because the teacher sees this is what a game that is very has a high narrative component, or my students are engaging with it and can bring it in. But you're we're talking about the third category of, like commercial games that are really embedding these themes of that are very much of a serious nature, from the get-go into their narratives or into their mechanics.
Kate Edwards:
Yeah, well, I was going to say it's interesting, because you look like a lot of real time strategy games like Starcraft or Warcraft or Age of Empires, which I've worked on, the Age series since its inception. I'm still doing some work on it, but all of those games, I mean, I know there's been academic studies that show that that when, especially when kids play those games, they have, they develop a far better understanding of resource management, because that's exactly what you're doing. You need wood, you need gold, you need ore, you need all these materials that you have to get and bring together in order so that you can, you know, create technologies, or create houses, or, you know, whatever you need to do in that level of resource management is a systems design that is something that we deal with in our real world every single day. I mean, anyone who runs a household knows that it's all about resource management, so or runs a business for that matter. And I think that is, is one of those things where that's just the game mechanic. That's how the game is designed. It's not, I don't think they really set out. So, you know what? We're going to make a game that teaches systems thinking and resource management. Now let's figure out what theme it should be. Oh, history. Let's wrap let's make it a historical game. It was the opposite. You know, we're going to make a historical game that, you know, allows you to build up an army and go fight this conflict, which actually emulates a real piece of history from the real world, but the Resource Management Systems aspect was just a means to an end. But I think that, you know, we see those kind of game mechanisms being used, which I think clearly have a very strong impact on people, whether or not you know, whether they know it or not.
Elizabeth Newbury:
Yeah, no, as someone married to a strategy gamer, I completely, I'm more of the RPG.
Kate Edwards:
same, yeah.
Elizabeth Newbury:
But with that also has, as you pointed out, narrative and learning associated with it, especially socio emotional learning. So we'll embrace our strengths there. Thinking of this general movement, though, of some of these commercial games that you've named, or just in general, the field of serious games, the direction that it's going, and what does the future hold for serious games? in your opinion.
Kate Edwards:
I think you know, because we are continuing to see the the evolution of games on the whole, both the technology that drives us, you know, in different mediums, like getting into XR, and what that means for experiential learning and in opening up the world of experiences. I think, you know, XR continues to kind of struggle to get that kind of mainstream grab it, which is mainly related to the devices. I mean, there's a lot of fantastic devices out there, but, you know, it still remains fairly niche, but I still have a lot of hope for XR technologies, because I do think, especially when we eventually get to really viable AR devices that people can use, kind of in their everyday experience. It's really going to open up a tremendous amount of learning in kind of the gamification, if you will. Even though I know some people don't like that word, but you know, being able to basically infuse game related thinking into so many activities that we do, you know, ones that make sense. And I think I see a lot of hope for that, and I can see serious games really taking advantage of that, you know, in all kinds of ways then. But I think serious games as a whole, there's been a lot of fantastically successful serious games, and you could argue that some of the ones that were passed off as mainstream games were technically like a serious game, like, I think Never Alone is one of those that fits that category where you're, you know, you have an entire game that was created with the purpose of highlighting a specific culture, you know, from northern Canada, tribal culture, and everything about that game was created with that group's approval and input. And you know, so even though it was, it's a very entertaining game. It's a great game. I recommended it to so many people at the same time, you could argue, but it's also vastly it's all about teaching you the culture so many aspects of that culture, the mythology, the cultural practices, the language. I mean, everything in that game is a reinforcement of teaching in the culture. So is that a serious game, or is it an actual entertainment game? Well, it's clearly both, in my opinion, and I think, to me, that's a good example of where I think serious games are evolving, where they're becoming, I use the word sophisticated, but I mean, what I really mean by that is, I think the it the lines get blurred, so that it's not explicitly, necessarily a serious game, even though, yes, there will always be a reason for those, and they're, like you said, like ones that are designed with a very specific pedagogy and and other things behind it, which is perfectly fine. Just like there will always be games that are designed strictly for fun, you know, there we're always going to have somebody making a match three game again and again, but which is fun. I still play them. I play with jewel blitz every day. But, you know, because it's fun and quick, but I, you know, I'm not, what am I learning from that? Probably not much other than my, you know, dexterity skills. So that's where I see happening. I see this continuing to merge of those two. So that, you know, I think, personally, in an ideal scenario, you're not going to really be able to know whether or not this is really, truly a serious game, per se. I know some people will still want that, because they have a specific purpose for the game. And like I said, that's perfectly fine, but there are so many ways that we are already merging kind of this critical thinking skills and passive learning into mainstream games. And I kind of see that continuing. So, you know, we could see at some point, and maybe we already have, and I didn't recognize it, but a triple A game that truly is a serious game on some level, but it was just never perceived that way.
Elizabeth Newbury:
Yeah, it would be really interesting to see that on the horizon right, where it's designed with the both those the cause for prosocial impact, right, and then also coming from a major studio. Can I actually pick your brain really quick on the AR component that you brought up. Yes, it does relate to the technologies of like geospatial awareness and embedding it in local. Where do you see AR technologies, or how rapidly are they evolving, or where, what are the possibilities with AR in particular?
Kate Edwards:
Well, I have a lot of hope for it. I mean, I wrote my master's thesis in 1991 on using VR and AR for cartography. So that's back when those technologies hardly even worked at all. So, but I saw the promise of it, and I still have that hope. And I, you know, the VR I think we've come up very long way with VR devices, and the ones that are out right now are quite good. You know, whether it's the quest or the vibe or whatever later people prefer. I mean, AR is still a bit of a struggle. I know Meta just announced their Orion project. I believe it was called and there's other things in the work. I think people are, you know, I've tried the vision Pro from Apple, which was a very cool device. I mean, I think it's really really cool. It works very very well, except it's very heavy, limited battery life. It's very awkward. So basically, I think we're still on the quest for AR that's like this. It's just glasses, super simple, really easy to use, voice control, simple buttons, whatever it might be, long battery life, whatever the case. We're not there yet. I mean, I know many many companies are working on something towards that, but I think the form factor has to be that easy, and that it has to be able to, you know, to easily map onto the environment, and that technology is out there, just a matter of bringing it all together at a price point that's going to work on a consumer level. But I think once we get there, and I don't think it's if we will get there, but once we have devices like that, it will open up so many avenues for games in general, both serious games and entertainment games. I mean, you know, imagine being out in the in the natural environment. You have something that can, you know, recognize shapes, recognize all kinds of things, you know, you could play games where you're going out in the environment, trying to identify different birds by looking around, and say, you identify one, okay, I think that, you know, it says, I think that's a Robin, you know. And then, you know, you can take your guess. It's like, yeah, it is, good job. You know, whatever it might be.
Elizabeth Newbury:
is what you're describing to me, and I'm very excited.
Kate Edwards:
Yeah, exactly. Or, like, what one of my side projects that I started during COVID, I started a company called SetJetters, which is a film tourism app, which helps people find where movies and TV shows have been filmed, because that's a hobby of mine, to do that when I travel. And so with the glasses, with AR, you'd be able to identify those places you know and look around. And because we've already gamified the app, you can earn badges and all that kind of thing. And you collect scenes when you get within 60 meters of them. So all of that could be integrated into the AR device and actually make it, you know, even more compelling, especially if you're in a very scene rich environment, like if you're in New York or London, it's just like, I swear, every street corner has been used for something, you know. So I could see people really kind of getting into that, but I think it does hold a tremendous amount of promise for what we can do. Because, I mean, we already saw the power of Pokemon GO in terms of getting people out and out in the environment. And I play Pokemon GO still, but you get out in the environment, and even though, yeah, you're not, maybe it's not a serious game, but still, you're out in the environment where you now are in the position to be exposed to so many things where it could be leveraged by another type of game in a really cool way. So I'm really excited for that technology. I can't wait for it to finally show up one of this, and hopefully I'll be able to afford it.
Elizabeth Newbury:
That's, I guess, the key, especially with early adoption, right? Yeah, where? Where is the access point coming? Yeah. So I would pick your brains forever on all of your projects that you've worked on, all 288 games. Was that the right number? Yeah, unfortunately we have to close. But thank you so very much for joining us today, for letting us pick your brain about serious games and games beyond serious games, and we'll provide a link to some of the things that you've mentioned down in the description below, and just again, thank you so much. It was a pleasure.
Kate Edwards:
Yeah, likewise. Thank you.
